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#300890 - 03/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
That's weird. I'll take a look at it and try to figure out what's going on...

RE the Spas and MP5 that's funny... AP costs need a look in that area too... I haven't changed any of these by the way, except for MP5k recoil was increased and accuracy increased - the rest is 1.13 craziness out of the box... smile
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#300891 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
I'm pretty sure SPAS-15 had 30+ AP to shoot, now it shows 25. Not that I'm complaining, the damn thing has 6 aimclicks anyway...
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#300894 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Hazapuza
master sgt
Registered: 21/02/2009
Posts: 282
Loc: Finland
I'm not familiar with base 1.13 NCTH weapon stats, but it might be the Handling stat that is making the MP5k seem so good. At least wil believes low Handling has a rather large effect on overall accuracy, and IIRC, in base 1.13 small, quick to draw weapons like the MP5k always have very low Handling values.
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#300897 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Sandro
first sergeant
Registered: 01/11/2008
Posts: 951
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
I can see how character stats can balance the weapons and let them grow into their own niche... so... another problem is: if weapons are still very deadly at all in general, the game will continue to favor camping in one place way too often, so what would you do about that? (At least in Iron Man mode.) If the guns are going to stay deadly something needs to be done to make movement, flanking and positioning less of a bad gamble in general (since it eats your AP pool and gives you nothing back).
I think you should keep yourself within reasonable borders. Stay focused on the xml tweaks and let the hard(-coding) stuff for another project (made by others for example). If you make the weapons' lethality somehow close to the current state of JA2 in general, everything's gonna be ok..

_________________________
Maker of improved IMP creation, New Trait System (aka STOMP), Alternate Weapon Holding, Improved Interrupt System, also added several animations etc.

Consider me as a "modder on retirement". No guarantees on more features from me.
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#300899 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
I did some more research into the issue and it looks like Weapon Handling is indeed the culprit. The MP5k has a weapon handling of 2, the MP5/10 a weapon handling of 7.

Is there any documentation about what formulas this affects?


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300901 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
@Sandro -- Says the guy working on a custom interrupt system. =P

I don't want to step on your toes, but I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to enjoy the game... the more I think about it, that probably means messing with the interrupt system at some point. But that's for me (and to balance Iron Man especially).

ETA: Dang Sandro, you've done a lot of modding! I'm going to plug the weapon XML changes into "Sandro's Mod" when I start another playthrough and balancing iteration, and try to get a feel for what you have done.


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300905 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
I don't fully understand what Weapon Handling does, but low numbers are definitely resulting in strange behavior, and for now I'm going to set weapon handling to a floor of 8 for all non-pistol weapons.
This is a good time for me to start using source control, since there's a high likelihood I'll want to back out of this change when we have more knowledge. I prefer Git, but I'm even being nice to all you JA fanatics and microsoft fanboys by using SVN. Here's the URL for a subversion repository for the project. Check it out to your Data-1.13 folder to develop against it.

https://jsulliva.beanstalkapp.com/ja2xml


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300906 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Asthner
corporal
Registered: 13/08/2010
Posts: 43
Loc: Poland, Lodz
I'm sure you found it, but just for reference, here is the HAM5 topic page that I think has the most detail (although somewhat spread through the posts on that page) on what we know about handling atm. So that other people can check it out quickly. smile

I wonder whether adding handling as a separate value to allow modders more control over gun behaviour means that bringing handling to some fixed (0? 1?) value over all the guns would restore their original properties in this field? Perhaps from that point they could be optimized more conveniently and consistently? I dunno, I'm shooting in the dark here, still not having a game installed to even have a chance to check this out. But brainstorming helps too, I hope. ;P
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#300907 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
Also, source control introduces a great new opportunity for players with only a basic understanding of how to use SVN - XML personalization through reversion.

Check out the source code, then choose SVN -> show log. You can then look at the changes each revision makes. Each revision will only make a specific, isolated kind of change and apply it in a consistent manner. Because of this, you can right click on a change you don't like and choose "SVN -> revert changes for this revision". Then that feature you dislike will be removed from your XML files, but you get to keep the other changes. It's like magic, only better!

For example, let's say you like all the changes except you want to be able to use revolvers with scopes. You can revert the revision that says, "Removed the ability to mount scopes on revolvers" using the above instructions and then you can dual wield those scoped Anacondas all over again.


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300908 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
@Asthner thank you very much for the link!!

Hidden variables confound game balance and make weapon stats confusing to the end user. Unless handling does something which other stats like accuracy, aiming levels, recoil, etc. don't account for, I agree I'd prefer to set all the handling values to a consistent number like you suggested, and then rebalance the stats for what it's affecting, like ready costs or accuracy, according to the formula for handling.

Ideally I'd know how handling bonuses are computed and add or subtract those bonuses to the items empirically before setting their handling stat to be the same number as the other guns. If I can't figure it out in a reasonable amount of time, I'll just set the handling for all weapons except pistols to a middling handling value, like 10, and then keep going from there.


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300917 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Ryft
master sgt
Registered: 16/06/2009
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: Sandro

If you could make both combat aproaches equally effective, then merc specialization could draw the line between them. A dedicated marksman could be able to perform deadly precise shots which are AP expensive though, but won't be able to suppress i.e. deal with larger number of enemies. A dedicated machinegunner on the other hand would be as deadly as the sniper with his own method - spraying bursts after bursts keeping even 10 enemies down until he beat the hell outta them.

***

a) Make aiming more AP expensive, but still effective..
b) Increase auto-fire rate of all weapons (there is a single ini setting for this)


Merc traits to completely change how effective a particular weapon is would be an excellent idea. Marksman/sniper currently is almost useless at higher levels, as I understand it... making it so that it continues to have a major impact on long range accuracy would mean that sniper rifles wouldn't dominate your entire team, but would still be deadly in the hands of a particular merc. Similarly, autoweapons/machine gunner would make aimed autofire appropriately deadly for a particular merc, but would make suppressive fire more of a tactic for a merc without those traits.

On the rest, option A might be a solid idea. Option B would require aimed autofire re balancing, I think.

Originally Posted By: Biernath_J
'Range' of weapon needs to be more important, aimed autofire is really overpowered.
The bonus range from slugs is useless, because 'range' overall is useless.
I have tons of slugs now, I'll do some more shooting after I find a 2x scope and a rifled choke.

Why do some shotguns need so much aimclicks to fully aim? SPAS-15 has like, 6 of them!


Range went from being the most important trait in OCTH to being something of an afterthought in NCTH. Match ammo seems almost useless, now. I can hit with a weapon reliably from well outside its range if I'm using a powerful scope. A range 40 G11 can hit accurately at half a normal map distance with a 7x scope... that's kinda nuts. Weapons should get a crazy penalty for shooting outside of their proper range, because at some level you have to respect that not all bullets are equal. .50 BMG goes farther than 5.56, and that's the end of it.

And the shotgun comments are spot on. Reflex type iron sites on a shotgun promote pretty solid aiming speed, additionally. They shouldn't take too many more steps to aim than a pistol does.
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#300925 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Ryft]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
From my limited shooting experience, shotguns with fixed stock are faster to aim than pistols, there's no way they should have 6 aimclicks.

I can't log in to this svn thingy, anonymous doesn't work. Any tips?
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#300927 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...=CO2NsssL#gid=4

This one has everything we need to compare and tweak.
Some basic guidelines for 'shotgun weapon class' should be defined first, to get the basic shotgun in-game parameters. And then, tweaking those parameters for every shotgun, until it all makes sense.
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#300930 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Ryft
master sgt
Registered: 16/06/2009
Posts: 295
I would think shotguns should have a slightly higher draw cost, but a faster aim cost, than pistols.

Especially on stuff like a double barrel shotgun, with just a front site... you can't even aim except for generally down the barrel, making for a really brief aiming experience (as well as a somewhat inaccurate weapon. Well, inaccurate for a shotgun...)

Shotguns should also have a reasonable accuracy when fired reflexively, "from the hip" or whatever. Within twenty feet, you don't miss much...

In this way, shotguns would remain a tool primarily for close quarters, with some accuracy at better range than pistols. They don't replace pistols, though, because pistols are still the best weapon to carry all the time (low weight, small) that you can draw and fire the fastest (quickest ready time).
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#300931 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Sandro
first sergeant
Registered: 01/11/2008
Posts: 951
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
@Sandro -- Says the guy working on a custom interrupt system. =P

I don't want to step on your toes, but I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to enjoy the game... the more I think about it, that probably means messing with the interrupt system at some point. But that's for me (and to balance Iron Man especially).
smile Actually the Improved Interrupt System is pretty much done. It's in testing phase now and implemented in SVN development branch, you just need to go to the ini and turn it on.
After it goes through some testing, I'll see whether to add the luxuries to it or remake it completely.:)

Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
ETA: Dang Sandro, you've done a lot of modding! I'm going to plug the weapon XML changes into "Sandro's Mod" when I start another playthrough and balancing iteration, and try to get a feel for what you have done.
Uh..? I haven't done much actually, especially lately the only thing worth mentioning is the IIS (Improved Interrupt System), maybe some minor features around (maybe walking with weapon raised - with RoWa). The rest is in developing.
So what do you mean by Sandro's Mod?
_________________________
Maker of improved IMP creation, New Trait System (aka STOMP), Alternate Weapon Holding, Improved Interrupt System, also added several animations etc.

Consider me as a "modder on retirement". No guarantees on more features from me.
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#300934 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
Is the new interrupt system working properly in the latest SCI (4968)? I have no idea what's the latest SVN version.
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#300939 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Sandro
first sergeant
Registered: 01/11/2008
Posts: 951
Loc: Mars
Yup, it should work properly in that SCI version. Any bugs report either to me via PM, or find the IIS thread.
_________________________
Maker of improved IMP creation, New Trait System (aka STOMP), Alternate Weapon Holding, Improved Interrupt System, also added several animations etc.

Consider me as a "modder on retirement". No guarantees on more features from me.
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#300951 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Kaerar
Drifter
Brigadier General
Registered: 13/01/2003
Posts: 6580
Loc: Australia :D
Looking forward to having a go with this. I've noticed that while Auto-Fire can be accurate it's also so erratic I'm back to aimed shots most of the time to kill. Suppression is only affordable if you have the right number of mercs with the right weapons (early in, not gonna happen!).

No scoping is pretty lame at the moment. Need to increase the chance to hit as all mercs with 85mrks or above should be able to hit a target at 50-100m with no scope. Currently the barn door is a hard target at point blank...
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#300953 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Kaerar]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
For SVN Access, enter no user name or password for read-only. If that doesn't work please let me know.

In regards to shotguns and aiming levels, in real life shotguns have pretty similar ergonomics to rifles.

The idea behind ALs is to represent the fact that you can only get so much out of aiming certain weapons, for example, the ordinary shooter can only get about 1/4th the accuracy of an aimed pistol as compared to a rifle. ALs compensate the shooter who uses the weapon with lower potential for accuracy by letting them achieve the maximum aim faster.

Shotguns are definitely more accurate than pistols in terms of where the barrel is pointing when you pull the trigger due to the fact that they have rifle-like ergonomics, hence the shotgun receives more ALs, a higher accuracy stat, and a higher raise AP cost. Important note: it's important to distinguish between accuracy (where you pointed the barrel) and the dispersion area of the pellets/darts around the center of the barrel when you fire. The second attribute needs to be reflected in the barrel choke, and ammo type.

Thoughts?


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300954 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
@Sandro, this looks pretty big to me. No need to be humble.

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220166


Edited by Mathmonkey (04/03/2012)
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#300955 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Sandro
first sergeant
Registered: 01/11/2008
Posts: 951
Loc: Mars
Bah, that is pretty old thing. It's called STOMP now, and implemented in main branch for ages... so you don't need to put any "Sandro's Mod" in your game, it's already there. smile
_________________________
Maker of improved IMP creation, New Trait System (aka STOMP), Alternate Weapon Holding, Improved Interrupt System, also added several animations etc.

Consider me as a "modder on retirement". No guarantees on more features from me.
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#300956 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Kaerar
Drifter
Brigadier General
Registered: 13/01/2003
Posts: 6580
Loc: Australia :D
Very true, in fact one thing in gaming is that you notice Shotty's are often depicted incorrectly. They are still pretty quick to aim even when taking ones time vs rifles. However range is always a problem, hence the SMG level range.

However I am in the disappointed category of the high Cal pistols which while looking awesome are dead useless without a 2x scope. I'm downloading this to try with a clean start as I'm finding the first game very frustrating without scopes on weapons. Makes outfitting mercs a real chore and increases the need to grab Drassen airport very early on.
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It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.
-Douglas Adams
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#300958 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Ryft
master sgt
Registered: 16/06/2009
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
In regards to shotguns and aiming levels, in real life shotguns have pretty similar ergonomics to rifles.

The idea behind ALs is to represent the fact that you can only get so much out of aiming certain weapons, for example, the ordinary shooter can only get about 1/4th the accuracy of an aimed pistol as compared to a rifle. ALs compensate the shooter who uses the weapon with lower potential for accuracy by letting them achieve the maximum aim faster.

Shotguns are definitely more accurate than pistols in terms of where the barrel is pointing when you pull the trigger due to the fact that they have rifle-like ergonomics, hence the shotgun receives more ALs, a higher accuracy stat, and a higher raise AP cost. Important note: it's important to distinguish between accuracy (where you pointed the barrel) and the dispersion area of the pellets/darts around the center of the barrel when you fire. The second attribute needs to be reflected in the barrel choke, and ammo type.

Thoughts?


Hrm... you know, I just realized I'm incredibly biased in my opinions on shotgun handling, too, because I've never bothered with slugs.

Shotguns may have similar ergonomics to rifles, but when you are dealing with shot you aren't taking the time to aim as precisely as with a rifle. So just as slow to ready, but faster to aim and shoot. Of course, that would change completely with a slug, wouldn't it? With only one projectile you would become more concerned with the true vector of that barrel, and that would require as much aiming as a rifle.

In game, I guess that means shotguns using buckshot should have a solid chance to hit with part of the scatter when not fully aiming. It actually might already be this way, but I'm not sure.
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#300959 - 04/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Ryft]

Kaerar
Drifter
Brigadier General
Registered: 13/01/2003
Posts: 6580
Loc: Australia :D
Slugs should be inherrently more inaccurate than a rifle at the same range (within the slugs effective range). Would make sense really. Plus being non-rifled barrels they certainly won't have the stability of a dedicated rifled barrel.

Is there a way to increase iron sight accuracy at the moment? I've been out of the loop a while and last install I had before the current release had about 1/4 the options in the INI Editor widegrin
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It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.
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#300968 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Kaerar]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
I had some luck with slugs today, fighting over Chitzena ports.
Small scope + rifled choke + being a ranger helps a bit, I was able to hit enemy soldiers for ~70dmg at typical night ranges.

IIS does not work for me though. This fight in a port was a nightmare, I got interrupts all the time from... civilians. They are lots of civilians in Chitzena port and they run around like crazy, my merc interrupt every time. I accidentaly shot some, not realizing it's not enemy, but civilian turn - boy, the whole population jumped my mercs lots of them armed smile

Had to turn IIS off, it took too long to fight and was too annoying.
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#300974 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Sandro
first sergeant
Registered: 01/11/2008
Posts: 951
Loc: Mars
That is weird, I was already fixing that bug. Gotta check it again, thanks for the saying.
Apart from that, what else do mean by IIS not working for you?
_________________________
Maker of improved IMP creation, New Trait System (aka STOMP), Alternate Weapon Holding, Improved Interrupt System, also added several animations etc.

Consider me as a "modder on retirement". No guarantees on more features from me.
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#300986 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
@Kaerar - if you want to make Irons better, one thing you can do is to go to your NCTHConstants.ini and change the NormalRange from 70 (7 squares, the effective range of irons) to a larger number. You can also increase this scope penalty multiplier that defaults to .7, to something like 1.0.

If you want to use scopes on your high cals, you can revert the changes if you want to. Or download alpha .2 at the top of the page - it doesn't have the scope removal in there yet.

But honestly, the system needs a retooling so that irons suck less in general. I'm considering giving a lot of weapons' irons and/or reflex sights a base scope mag factor of 1.5-2x, until a serious code change is added. Thanks to "Revert changes from this revision" I can magically make any scope hacks disappear overnight if someone retools the scope system. Thoughts?


Edited by Mathmonkey (05/03/2012)
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#300987 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Ryft]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Ryft
Hrm... you know, I just realized I'm incredibly biased in my opinions on shotgun handling, too, because I've never bothered with slugs.

Shotguns may have similar ergonomics to rifles, but when you are dealing with shot you aren't taking the time to aim as precisely as with a rifle. So just as slow to ready, but faster to aim and shoot. Of course, that would change completely with a slug, wouldn't it? With only one projectile you would become more concerned with the true vector of that barrel, and that would require as much aiming as a rifle.

In game, I guess that means shotguns using buckshot should have a solid chance to hit with part of the scatter when not fully aiming. It actually might already be this way, but I'm not sure.


An interesting thing you may not know about shotguns is that aiming is crucially important at point blank range. The reason is that the pellets exit the shotgun in a tight pattern shaped like the gauge of the barrel, and if the hole it creates doesn't damage CNS or spine, it's not going to incapacitate a determined enemy. As the pellets or flechettes disperse to an optimal range, their wounding and incapacitation potential is increased. This optimal range is variable depending on the barrel length of the shotgun (longer = less dispersion), the choke, gauge, and whether you're using magnum shells, flechettes, etc., but every dispersion has an optimum wounding potential that's not point blank.


I have no plans to try to simulate all this or seriously mess with dispersal patterns, it would be way too hard and lead to all kinds of problems. But a result of this is that people who are trained to defend themselves with shotguns are trained to assume that shot placement is critical and act accordingly. Food for thought about the level of effort that is best applied when aiming buckshot & flechettes.


Edited by Mathmonkey (05/03/2012)
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#300992 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
Quote:
For SVN Access, enter no user name or password for read-only. If that doesn't work please let me know.

no luck here, does not work
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#300994 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Sandro]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: Sandro
That is weird, I was already fixing that bug. Gotta check it again, thanks for the saying.
Apart from that, what else do mean by IIS not working for you?

I don't really get the idea of IIS, and I was unable to find the IIS thread. I'm pretty clueless.
It makes finding bugs harder if I don't know the things are happening are supposed to happen.

EDIT: found it now, searching the forums was a bad idea, google ftw!
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290787&page=1

reading now!


Edited by Biernath_J (05/03/2012)
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#301001 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Kaerar
Drifter
Brigadier General
Registered: 13/01/2003
Posts: 6580
Loc: Australia :D
Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
@Kaerar - if you want to make Irons better, one thing you can do is to go to your NCTHConstants.ini and change the NormalRange from 70 (7 squares, the effective range of irons) to a larger number. You can also increase this scope penalty multiplier that defaults to .7, to something like 1.0.

If you want to use scopes on your high cals, you can revert the changes if you want to. Or download alpha .2 at the top of the page - it doesn't have the scope removal in there yet.

But honestly, the system needs a retooling so that irons suck less in general. I'm considering giving a lot of weapons' irons and/or reflex sights a base scope mag factor of 1.5-2x, until a serious code change is added. Thanks to "Revert changes from this revision" I can magically make any scope hacks disappear overnight if someone retools the scope system. Thoughts?

I think 2x would be too much, but I'd have them at about 1.2x and effective out to about 100m at least if not 120m (making pistols able to hit something!). Currently aiming with iron sights on pistols even at close range is a dicey prospect.

Problem with alpha 0.2 is that I have a few custom items ingame I'd have to remake and I'll do that next revision with the increased size UI capabilities.
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It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.
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#301019 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Ryft
master sgt
Registered: 16/06/2009
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: Mathmonkey
An interesting thing you may not know about shotguns is that aiming is crucially important at point blank range. The reason is that the pellets exit the shotgun in a tight pattern shaped like the gauge of the barrel, and if the hole it creates doesn't damage CNS or spine, it's not going to incapacitate a determined enemy. As the pellets or flechettes disperse to an optimal range, their wounding and incapacitation potential is increased. This optimal range is variable depending on the barrel length of the shotgun (longer = less dispersion), the choke, gauge, and whether you're using magnum shells, flechettes, etc., but every dispersion has an optimum wounding potential that's not point blank.

I have no plans to try to simulate all this or seriously mess with dispersal patterns, it would be way too hard and lead to all kinds of problems. But a result of this is that people who are trained to defend themselves with shotguns are trained to assume that shot placement is critical and act accordingly. Food for thought about the level of effort that is best applied when aiming buckshot & flechettes.


A lot of factors change in firearm self defense when you get into the realm of point blank range. If our NCTH accuracy system only breaks down at point blank range, I'm not going to complain, because in general my guys get along fine intentionally staying outside of close quarters, and at a certain distance you've also got the option to charge with a knife, anyway.
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#301021 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
@Biernarth, I updated the SVN URL. Please let me know if this one works: https://jsulliva.svn.beanstalkapp.com/ja2xml


Edited by Mathmonkey (05/03/2012)
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#301022 - 05/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
Seems to work fine. Which files do I need? items.xml and weapons.xml will do?
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#301126 - 06/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
items.xml, weapons.xml and attachments.xml

I'll remove the files that aren't being used from SVN, and eventually there will be a couple more files that are used (like ammo)


Edited by Mathmonkey (06/03/2012)
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#301127 - 06/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
You mentioned that some attachment possibilities, like small scopes for revolvers? You could also check if Spooky's bandana is in your files.

EDIT: nevermind that, I see you already cleared the repository of unneeded xmls.


Edited by Biernath_J (06/03/2012)
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#301164 - 06/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
...and you brought all those XMLs back!

Playing with your latest revision, mp5k seems to lost some of its charm - a good thing.
What's next?
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#301345 - 08/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
There seems to be something wrong with shotgun chokes.
Today I fired several buckshot rounds using rifled choke - I didn't even notice that something's wrong. And it should be, pellets should spread like crazy! But they went in a tight group as always.
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#301374 - 09/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Ryft
master sgt
Registered: 16/06/2009
Posts: 295
Wouldn't a rifled choke still narrow the aperture on buckshot, causing it to group tighter even if the rifling itself is useless?

Asking out of honest curiosity... I don't really have any experience with shotgun chokes in real life.
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#301398 - 09/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Ryft]

Biernath_J
first sergeant
Registered: 24/08/2003
Posts: 703
Loc: Poland
According to zilpin's original idea AND in-game item description, the shot should spread like crazy in spiral pattern.

I remember that effect, it was pretty fun to look at.

It does not spread now, something has changed?
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#301504 - 11/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Biernath_J]

Mathmonkey
corporal
Registered: 28/02/2012
Posts: 37
I put all the XML files back in the SVN, because removing them will cause an SVN->update to delete all those files from the working copy. The version control's way of doing an "Undo add" is a delete, but that would cause updating the repository to delete the XMLs from your local working copy - breaking the game. So that's why they're back.

Rifled chokes: I'm not 100% accurate on this, but IIRC the Box o' Truth did a test on rifled chokes and found they had a tendency to widen the pellet distribution and create a "donut" pattern. In my completely uneducated opinion, I bet you could probably get other inconsistent patterns when firing out of other rifled chokes too. Thus I would expect buck fired from a rifled choke to not be at its most consistent or best, although not worthless/still dangerous. Some kind of reasonable but not crippling buckshot penalty to buck and flechettes could be a reasonable way to simulate this. I think Flechettes would fare even worse than buckshot... in my completely uneducated opinion. If anyone knows more about shotgun chokes and want to opine I'm interested in their thoughts.


Edited by Mathmonkey (11/03/2012)
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#301651 - 13/03/2012 Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk? [Re: Mathmonkey]

Snowflame
private
Registered: 24/02/2012
Posts: 6
Im trying ure xml's at the moment on Insane level. Here some feedback from what I experienced so far.

- Pistols:
I like that there are more differences between Pistols (Using .44 Desert Egal for the first time). Though I think quite a lot are still way to similar.
Maybe play a bit more with accuracy, acuracy applies on the "normal" range so for pistols thats close to their effective range so a pistol with accuracy 4 and one with 6 have no real difference.

- Shotguns:
The higher accuracy makes them worse, and in my opinion also little sense. Shotguns usually have a smoothbore (= no rifling) barrel and are therefore less accurate to fire. Slugs need to compensate for that by being self stabilizing (if possible they should give an accuracy bonus). Slugs usually used for hunting, there military use is very limited. You basically fire a single bullet from a less accurate and slow platform at short range. There simply are better weapons available for that. Bugshot and flechette are much more interesting since the inaccurate Barrel actually is a benefit here every shot can bee seen as a burst.

In the game with NCTH accuracy of the gun is only used to calculate how far the bullets spray not for aiming the gun. So for Shotguns with Flechette high accuracy means low spray, therefore aiming becomes more important. If u are slightly of the target chances are high u miss completely. While with low accuracy ure aiming might be totally off but u still get a hit because the gun sprays to the right direction.

After that long talk the conclusion:
Make shotguns less acurate again, I think it should be even less then Pistols (they have rifled barrels). To making them more usefull just set the aiming levels very low. Also i think difference between pumpaction Shotguns and automatic shotguns should be somehow bigger. Right now there is no reason to ever use a pumpaction Shotgun.

- Sniper Rifles:
Accuracy difference between semiautomatic and manual reload guns should be higher in my opinion.

- SMG and Assault rifles:
SMG are way more powerful now, in my game I discovered that they are better then Assault rifles most of the times. Better full auto capability, faster to raise and to shoot, less aiming levels, more silent, similar accuracy. Only downside at the moment is the lower range but with NCTH range is way less important. A StyrTMP in aimed full auto kills even on enormous distances.
I think you should decrease the accuracy of SMG again AR have a longer barrel and should be more accurate.
Also that would make the accuracy difference between machine pistols and SMG less extreme. (Compare a Baretta with a StyrTMP)


Edited by Snowflame (13/03/2012)
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